38mm calipers, part II revised

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miker
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38mm calipers, part II revised

Post by miker » Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:36 pm

I am starting a new thread on 38mm rear calipers because the last one zeroed in on improving my brake bleeding skills (which helped, thank you!). There are also some interesting points made on the relative merits of rear compensator vs. none, and brake balance.

Here I just want to focus on one question: are 38mm rear calipers appropriate for Spiders.

Recall I’m running a 7/8" MC with a bigger booster to compensate for the larger effort required with a larger diameter booster. In theory, the larger MC should mean less pedal travel. But the larger calipers I am running eats up that capacity, and more.

Here is a theory for what’s happening. First recognize that in our cars, the MC gets pushed on by the actuating rod coming out of the booster. Free play can be adjusted with the acorn nut on the end of the rod.

The rod pushes the MC piston and the first fluid compressed is going to the rear brakes, but at the same time the rear piston acts on the front piston which goes to the front brakes. So if the rear brakes have a lot of movement to take up, front braking will be delayed. If the brakes in back fail altogether, the piston in back will make mechanical contact with the piston in front and you will get some braking in front with the pedal on the floor. If the fronts fail, the same mechanical compression will eventually get you some rear braking.

Question 1: is this correct?

Question 2: how much more brake pedal travel will larger calipers require?

We could calculate the volume of fluid needed to move these pistons and compare that to the volume pushed by the MC, but we don’t need to. We just need to compare the areas of the pistons. If the pistons on each end have the same area, they will move the same amount. If the MC has half the area, it will have to move twice as far. But the larger MC will require twice the effort. In my case, that’s OK, the bigger MC is mated to a bigger booster.

OK, here are the specific numbers. I went first from column B to Column C. I'm currently at Column D, contemplating a return to stock rear calipers, Column E. If I did, I would get a 5mm higher pedal.

Note to all: if you use Wilwood calipers up front, and 38mm rear calipers with a stock MC, it could be dangerous.
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More movement isn’t just a pedal feel issue. If too much stroke is used up top, you will run out of stroke if one of the brake circuits fails. So if you used Wilwood calipers up front, and 38mm rear calipers, it could be dangerous.

How much piston movement in the caliper is actually required? My math is for 1mm of movement. What if it’s 2mm?

In my last attempt to make brakes feel better, I loosened the acorn nut 1 turn, which I think corresponds to 1mm. It definitely helped. If someone has a brake booster on the shelf and can measure the thread pitch of the adjusting rod, we could nail this down.

The thing I can't nail down in my head is the effect on "feel" that having rear calipers travel farther has on the way the front brakes feel.

Comments welcome.
MikeR (mirafiori.com since 1995)


1977 Fiat 124 Spider
Previously owned:
2012 Fiat 500 Prima Edizione #236 (now owned by my son David)
'86 Bertone X1/9
'81 Fiat Spider 2000 #236
'78 Fiat 131 four door
'76 Fiat 128 4 door
'74 Fiat 128 4 door
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miker
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Re: 38mm calipers, part II revised

Post by miker » Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:35 pm

There is a big discussion about these calipers over on Xweb.

https://xwebforums.com/forum/index.php? ... 288/page-3

One interesting idea was the use of a brake line residual pressure valve.

https://www.wilwood.com/MasterCylinders ... =260-13783
MikeR (mirafiori.com since 1995)


1977 Fiat 124 Spider
Previously owned:
2012 Fiat 500 Prima Edizione #236 (now owned by my son David)
'86 Bertone X1/9
'81 Fiat Spider 2000 #236
'78 Fiat 131 four door
'76 Fiat 128 4 door
'74 Fiat 128 4 door
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atruscott
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Re: 38mm calipers, part II revised

Post by atruscott » Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:08 pm

I refer to my previous comments on the two prior threads ;) and add an additional one. This only really makes sense in my mind with extra weight in the rear to compensate for the enhance front end dip.
1960 Autobianchi Bianchina Transformabile
1970 238 Camper OHV
1974 124 Wagon TC
1974 124 Special TC
1975 124 Sport Coupe
1976 124 Sport Spider (The Racer)
1981 Spider 2000 (The Resurrected)
1985 Pininfarina Azzurra
2017 124 Spider Abarth Elaborazione
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